Broadcast: 13/02/2012
The United Nations' High Commissioner for Refugees, Antonio Guterres, is visiting Australia and joins us to discuss the issues facing asylum seekers in Australia and around the world.
Transcript
CHRIS UHLMANN, PRESENTER: With the political fight moving to the economy and the weather slowing the steady stream of boat arrivals, there's been a brief lull in the border protection battle. One man who can put Australia's problems in context is former Portuguese Prime Minister Antonio Guterres. That's because he's been the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees since 2005. He's on a visit to Australia and I spoke with him earlier from Canberra.
Antonio Guterres, welcome to the program.
ANTONIO GUTERRES, UN HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES: It's a pleasure to be here.
CHRIS UHLMANN: It's the Australian Government's stated policy to engage Malaysia in taking some of the people that are seeking asylum here. What's your view on that?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Well first of all I think it's important to say that Australia has always been a very important pillar of the international asylum system. Australia has received 750,000 refugees until now. Australia's one of the most successful, if not the most successful resettlement program in the world with a large number of people being successfully integrated in the Australian society. Now, it's also true that if one looks at the number of boat people that comes into Australia, it's a relatively small number compared with other regions of the world, and so to a certain extent we always find these debates a little bit inflated in Australia, and we would prefer, to be honest, that these cases could be resettled - could be processed in the country itself. Having said so, we will always be considering whatever proposal the Australian Government makes of co-operation with other countries in the region, having always one essential concern that all protection problems of the people are adequately met and it was based on that that we have issued our own opinions when consulted about that agreement with Malaysia.
CHRIS UHLMANN: Isn't it the view of the UNHCR that if the Australian Government is to send asylum seekers to another country, that country should be a signatory to the 1951 Refugee Convention?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: I think that, as I said, our preference is always that these situations are solved in Australia itself. In mechanisms of international cooperation what is important is to guarantee that effective protection is granted, that people cannot - will not be refouled, that people can have humane reception conditions, they will not have arbitrary detention, that they have access to educational systems and employment. And so it's not only a question of knowing whether a country is or not signatory to the Convention, it's a question of knowing whether a country is able to fully respect these protection concerns.
CHRIS UHLMANN: And is Malaysia such a country?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Well, as I said, we gave our opinion about the conditions that should be met. The agreement did not move forward. If any agreement of this nature will in the future be conceded we will issuing again be issuing our opinions. But I repeat: we consider that the preferred solution is always for countries to process the asylum requests of those that reach their territory.
CHRIS UHLMANN: What about the policy of mandatory detention? There are now more than 1,000 people who have been in detention for more than a year. 750 have spent more than 548 days in detention and 173 have been in detention for more than two years. Is that acceptable?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Well, that was in the very centre of the very open and constructive discussions today, both with the Prime Minister, the members of the Government and the Opposition. Detention is the area in which we would like improvements to be made in the sense that detention should be more an exception and less a rule and that of course detention conditions should be improved. I saw a commitment of the Government to look seriously into that. Another issue that was discussed has to do with the security assessments and - in order to make the process to be quicker and to introduce some checks and balances into it. So, there are aspects of progress to be made, and as I said, they were in the very centre of the discussions I had to today with the Australian authorities. And very encouraged by the openness in those discussions.
CHRIS UHLMANN: And did you also discuss the 506 children who are in alternative places of detention on Christmas Island and the mainland?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Yes, we discussed all aspects related to, as I said, detention and security assessments and this is the area where, as I said, we hope that we will be able to witness - some progress has already happened, but there is still a long way to go and I hope that there will be an important movement forward in the near future.
CHRIS UHLMANN: The Opposition says that if it comes to power, it will tow boats back to Indonesia. Is that viable or even safe?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: We have been very clearly saying that we are ready to discuss with any government any policy of international cooperation in this area. But we don't think that pushbacks are a solution. We have clearly opposed pushbacks in the Italian case in the Mediterranean in the recent past before the Libyan crisis, and we think that that is clearly a violation in relation to the '51 Convention. As I said, we would prefer situations like this to be processed in the country. We are ready to consider international mechanisms that meet protection requirements, and we also are concerned with the fact that smugglers and traffickers are very active in the world and with dramatic violation of human rights of the people that suffer their action.
So, we are ready to also cooperate with states in order to make sure that mechanisms are created to crack down on smugglers and traffickers, and at the same time, to protect people and to grant people access to places where they can be protected without having to suffer the very negative impact of, as I said, the violations of human rights they suffer in the hands of smugglers and traffickers into today's world. Not only in Australia. If you look at numbers, about 6,000 people came to Australia last year, but to Italy and Malta, 58,000; to Yemen, 100,000. So this is a global problem, in which the numbers in Australia are still relatively small and that is why we believe that this debate has sometimes been inflated out of proportion with the reality of the problem in itself and that there is - there should be a scope for a calm and rational approach to these questions in a way that could meet the protection requirements of people.
CHRIS UHLMANN: If I could just ask you a final question as the former Prime Minister of Portugal: how concerned are you that Greece will buckle under this harsh austerity drive?
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Well, I mean, obviously as a - as a European I'm very worried with the present situation in Europe and especially in the southern part of Europe. Levels of unemployment have grown enormously, people are suffering and this is a very challenging situation. And I hope that Europe will be able to put together mechanisms of solidarity and support that will hope these countries cope with huge challenges they are facing and reduce the very negative impact, especially on vulnerable people.
CHRIS UHLMANN: Antonio Guterres, thankyou.
ANTONIO GUTERRES: Thankyou very much.
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