MARK COLVIN: The UNHCR'S representative in Malaysia, Alan Vernon, says the Australian plan to process asylum seekers there could prove to be a positive turning point for refugee rights.
The UNHCR would be responsible for the refugee applications from asylum seekers diverted from Australia to Malaysia.
Mr Vernon spoke to Southeast Asia correspondent Zoe Daniel in Kuala Lumpur.
ALAN VERNON: The challenge of dealing with situations of mixed migration where you have refugees and migrants, asylum seekers, moving throughout the region is a challenge for everybody involved - that's governments, that's organisations such as UNHCR.
And so, as was envisioned under the Bali Process, where it spoke to refugee protection issues, which last month endorsed the regional cooperation framework, cooperation among states and organisations to try to make sure that asylum seekers and refugees get the protection they need as an important priority.
And under this agreement, to the extent to which we have all the details - and of course we know that it's a work in progress which is still being discussed - yeah, we see that there are opportunities for better protection for refugees here in Malaysia, and more broadly in the region.
ZOE DANIEL: So what safeguards need to be put in place to make sure that the asylum seekers that are coming through Malaysia have some support?
ALAN VERNON: I think first and foremost the most important protection is protection against refoulement, that they're not returned to their country where they might be in danger, or to another country where they then could be returned and be in danger as well. So that's the key protection.
Ideally, individuals coming to a country have a legal basis to stay in the country. We'd like to see them not in detention; if they are in detention, that that would be for as short a time as possible for verifying identity. And then that they can live within the population, that they can have an opportunity to have access to education, access to health services, ideally that they can work.
But that they can have a degree of dignity while waiting for their case to be processed to determine whether they would be recognised as a refugee or not.
And then, after that, we need to look at see what would be the appropriate solution for individuals and then we try to work towards that.
ZOE DANIEL: Asylum seeker advocates here that I've spoken to have questioned this idea, saying that people who are already in the system here have enough struggles, to be putting more people into the system when it's obvious that there are difficulties for the people who are already in the queue is not a good idea.
ALAN VERNON: Surely. It's not an easy environment, but it is an environment in which conditions are improving. We are able to get a significant number of children in school. We're able to make sure that people have access to health care. We have some degree of safety net for that.
It's by no means perfect but there generally are positive conditions. We have a good dialogue with the Government around the possibility of refugees being allowed to work. All these are positive elements.
Asylum seekers and refugees sometimes do get arrested as part of immigration control activities. We have access to detention. We are able to secure their release.
So those who would say that Malaysia's a difficult environment, they would be correct, but it's an environment in which we're operating and working and trying to improve things. And we do see improvements in the environment, and we're confident that there's opportunities through this process hopefully to improve conditions again - not only for asylum seekers and refugees in Malaysia but more broadly across the region.
ZOE DANIEL: UNHCR itself has been criticised for being slow to process people's applications, for being slow to respond when people have a problem with Malaysian authorities. How will you as an organisation cope with extra people you have to deal with?
ALAN VERNON: I think the extent to which we are slow is a function of the numbers, and the numbers are significant. And if we compare the size of our capacity against the numbers of individuals that we're trying to help take care of, to help make sure that they get protection, it's a difficult challenge.
We work to prioritise. If an individual has a serious medical problem, we can bring them forward to make sure they get attention. We work closely with refugee communities. We work closely with NGOs here to make sure that if anybody is in serious trouble, then we can make sure that they are- that their needs are addressed.
ZOE DANIEL: Do you think that this will deter people smugglers?
ALAN VERNON: It has the potential to do so from the point of view that these individuals prey upon the insecurities of individuals. They extract large sums of money on promises of delivering a result for people, and the danger associated with these journeys is very real and very difficult.
And you have also the reality that asylum seekers often move from one country to another, and transit another before they actually seek asylum. This creates all kinds of difficulties in the overall system of refugee protection globally.
So to the extent to which the burden is shared fairly, to the extent to which people are not getting on boats and making dangerous journeys, to the extent to which people can seek asylum and get a fair hearing of their claim, in the first opportunity where they get the chance to do that and that states feel that they're not being over burdened but that there is equitable burden sharing, then that's going to be better for everybody.
MARK COLVIN: That's Alan Vernon, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees representative in Malaysia, talking to Zoe Daniel.
The UNHCR would be responsible for the refugee applications from asylum seekers diverted from Australia to Malaysia.
Mr Vernon spoke to Southeast Asia correspondent Zoe Daniel in Kuala Lumpur.
ALAN VERNON: The challenge of dealing with situations of mixed migration where you have refugees and migrants, asylum seekers, moving throughout the region is a challenge for everybody involved - that's governments, that's organisations such as UNHCR.
And so, as was envisioned under the Bali Process, where it spoke to refugee protection issues, which last month endorsed the regional cooperation framework, cooperation among states and organisations to try to make sure that asylum seekers and refugees get the protection they need as an important priority.
And under this agreement, to the extent to which we have all the details - and of course we know that it's a work in progress which is still being discussed - yeah, we see that there are opportunities for better protection for refugees here in Malaysia, and more broadly in the region.
ZOE DANIEL: So what safeguards need to be put in place to make sure that the asylum seekers that are coming through Malaysia have some support?
ALAN VERNON: I think first and foremost the most important protection is protection against refoulement, that they're not returned to their country where they might be in danger, or to another country where they then could be returned and be in danger as well. So that's the key protection.
Ideally, individuals coming to a country have a legal basis to stay in the country. We'd like to see them not in detention; if they are in detention, that that would be for as short a time as possible for verifying identity. And then that they can live within the population, that they can have an opportunity to have access to education, access to health services, ideally that they can work.
But that they can have a degree of dignity while waiting for their case to be processed to determine whether they would be recognised as a refugee or not.
And then, after that, we need to look at see what would be the appropriate solution for individuals and then we try to work towards that.
ZOE DANIEL: Asylum seeker advocates here that I've spoken to have questioned this idea, saying that people who are already in the system here have enough struggles, to be putting more people into the system when it's obvious that there are difficulties for the people who are already in the queue is not a good idea.
ALAN VERNON: Surely. It's not an easy environment, but it is an environment in which conditions are improving. We are able to get a significant number of children in school. We're able to make sure that people have access to health care. We have some degree of safety net for that.
It's by no means perfect but there generally are positive conditions. We have a good dialogue with the Government around the possibility of refugees being allowed to work. All these are positive elements.
Asylum seekers and refugees sometimes do get arrested as part of immigration control activities. We have access to detention. We are able to secure their release.
So those who would say that Malaysia's a difficult environment, they would be correct, but it's an environment in which we're operating and working and trying to improve things. And we do see improvements in the environment, and we're confident that there's opportunities through this process hopefully to improve conditions again - not only for asylum seekers and refugees in Malaysia but more broadly across the region.
ZOE DANIEL: UNHCR itself has been criticised for being slow to process people's applications, for being slow to respond when people have a problem with Malaysian authorities. How will you as an organisation cope with extra people you have to deal with?
ALAN VERNON: I think the extent to which we are slow is a function of the numbers, and the numbers are significant. And if we compare the size of our capacity against the numbers of individuals that we're trying to help take care of, to help make sure that they get protection, it's a difficult challenge.
We work to prioritise. If an individual has a serious medical problem, we can bring them forward to make sure they get attention. We work closely with refugee communities. We work closely with NGOs here to make sure that if anybody is in serious trouble, then we can make sure that they are- that their needs are addressed.
ZOE DANIEL: Do you think that this will deter people smugglers?
ALAN VERNON: It has the potential to do so from the point of view that these individuals prey upon the insecurities of individuals. They extract large sums of money on promises of delivering a result for people, and the danger associated with these journeys is very real and very difficult.
And you have also the reality that asylum seekers often move from one country to another, and transit another before they actually seek asylum. This creates all kinds of difficulties in the overall system of refugee protection globally.
So to the extent to which the burden is shared fairly, to the extent to which people are not getting on boats and making dangerous journeys, to the extent to which people can seek asylum and get a fair hearing of their claim, in the first opportunity where they get the chance to do that and that states feel that they're not being over burdened but that there is equitable burden sharing, then that's going to be better for everybody.
MARK COLVIN: That's Alan Vernon, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees representative in Malaysia, talking to Zoe Daniel.
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