Immigration Minister Chris Bowen joins Lateline to discuss Australia's deal with Malaysia over asylum seekers.
ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: To discuss Australia's deal with Malaysia I was joined a short time ago from Canberra by the Immigration Minister Chris Bowen.
Minister, thanks for talking to Lateline.
CHRIS BOWEN, IMMIGRATION MINISTER: Pleasure.
ALI MOORE: This is an in-principle agreement. Is it a done deal?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well certainly the prime minister of Malaysia has committed to enter into this agreement, yes. Of course there are details that are still being worked through. This has been negotiated with Malaysia over a period of six months. I first raised this with my ministerial colleague in Malaysia, Minister Hishammuddin, in last December and we've been working on it since then.
ALI MOORE: Any sticking points that you can see?
CHRIS BOWEN: Oh, look, there's always implementation details and things to be worked through in what is a complex area in terms of transfers between one nation and another, but it's a commitment to enter into an agreement and certainly the degree of good faith and co-operation between Australia and Malaysia in these discussions has been first class.
Malaysia is a key partner of Australia in dealing with people smuggling issues. We deal with a lot of things together, and this takes that relationship to the next step.
ALI MOORE: At a cost of $292 million Australia is "fully funding" the arrangement. Why is Australia paying for both ends of this deal if it's mutually beneficial?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well because this is Malaysia assisting Australia to break the business model of the people smugglers. We can now very clearly send the message to people: don't bother getting on a boat to come to Australia, don't risk your life, don't pay the money, because you'll be returned to Malaysia, which is the first entry point into Asia for most asylum seekers that come to Australia.
So Malaysia is assisting in that. Also it's appropriate that Malaysia, who has 92,000 registered refugees and asylum seekers in its country, that we assist them in that with a greater degree of burden sharing across the region and that Australia can play a greater role. So this is a win for Malaysia. It's also a win for Australia. It's a loss for the people smugglers.
ALI MOORE: So of the $76 million of the $292 million that's been identified as operational cost, is that $76 million going to Malaysia?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well that's the entire operational cost. That's the cost of transfers, it's the cost of moving people to Malaysia, it's the cost of introducing them to the Malaysian system. We've said very clearly Australia is funding this agreement.
Malaysia is a country which deals with many challenges. Ninety two thousand asylum seekers and refugees on their books, probably more than that - they're the ones that are registered. And it's appropriate that Australia funds this agreement because it is a fundamental blow to the business model of the people smugglers.
It means that smugglers can no longer sell the guaranteed product of being processed and resettled in Australia. The relationship between Australian and Malaysia is a good one in this regard and it's appropriate that we fund the arrangement.
ALI MOORE: So what will the money be used for? For processing costs? Will we be actively supporting these 800 asylum seekers we're sending to Malaysia?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, look, the IOM and the UNHCR will be in the process of managing these people through. The total operational costs are the total operational costs, the costs that you identified - that's the cost of the transfer, it's the cost of the processing in Malaysia. The people in Malaysia don't have access to welfare or that level of support, so there are very minimal costs there. But this is ...
ALI MOORE: Will we be providing that support?
CHRIS BOWEN: We'll be funding the arrangement, we'll be funding the process of IOM, we'll be funding the process of the UNHCR in the processing as past arrangement, but there's no ongoing support in terms of access to welfare under the Malaysian system. People who are transferred to Malaysia under this deal will get no preferential treatment and that's an important part of the deal.
ALI MOORE: So how will they support themselves? As you say yourself, there's no right to work, there's no access to health care, there's no access to education.
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, there's 92 million - 92,000, I should say, asylum seekers in Malaysia. They support themselves through a variety of mechanisms. Of course there's informal work that happens, of course there is, but there's no formal work rights.
ALI MOORE: Illegal work?
CHRIS BOWEN: There's no formal work rights. And that is what happens. Now, importantly, Ali, if you're concerned about the plight of asylum seekers in Malaysia, then people would welcome the fact that Australia is taking 4,000 more over the next four years.
We are taking people who've been mandated as refugees, who've been waiting patiently in Malaysia for resettlement. People who are in - have fled difficult situations, particularly in Burma, and fled the regime there and we are taking more of that load and that's appropriate.
ALI MOORE: Is it though a moral dilemma for the Government and indeed for yourself as minister, because of course Australia clothes, houses, feeds, educates and looks after asylum seekers while their applications are being processed. And now a decision has been made to say, "Well, we'll keep doing that, except for these 800 who won't get what the others will get in Australia." Is that a moral dilemma?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, the benefit of this deal, as I say, Ali, is that it breaks the business model of the people smugglers. It's a huge disincentive to come to Australia. And to answer your question about the moral dilemma: it means that we can increase our humanitarian intake and we can help 4,000 more people. I find that something which is very easy to embrace on a moral level. It means that Australia can do more.
And, it's very easy in this debate to focus on one group of people: the people who make it into Australia. Let's focus on some of the others: on the 92,000 in Malaysia and doing more for them, the people who don't get on boats to come to Australia and the people who have been waiting for resettlement. Now if we can do more for that and do more across the region, I think morally that's something we can embrace with open arms.
ALI MOORE: You've always rejected rejecting process centres like Nauru on the basis that they're not signatories to the UN convention. Of course Malaysia is not. Why is Malaysia different?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well Malaysia has had a commitment to Australia that they will comply with the basic principle of the UN convention on refugees, which is they will not return people to persecution where they're in need of international protection. They've also made a commitment to treat people with dignity and respect and humanity and that people will have their claims assessed.
The UNHCR has been consulted in terms of this arrangement and they'll be participating in it. And the UNHCR of course I think sees this as a significant step forward in their relationship with Malaysia.
ALI MOORE: At the same time, the UNHCR has pointed out that if there is going to be a monitoring role for them, there'd need to be some discussion. Are you prepared to formally fund the UNHCR so they can monitor? Because I wonder how a very high-level commitment about treating these people with dignity and respect flows down to the local policeman or the volunteer police force, which in Malaysia is responsible for checking IDs and travel documents.
CHRIS BOWEN: Well we have been in discussions in the UNHCR. I've been in those discussions at the Geneva level, at the Jakarta level, at the Kuala Lumpur level. And these are discussions that we've been having and will continue to have. The UNHCR has rightly pointed out that there are still details being sorted through.
But I think, Ali, if a sovereign government makes a commitment that people will be treated with respect and humanity, that should be respected in turn. So big step for Malaysia to say that they will abide by the agreement not to return people to a country where they may face persecution, that they will have their claims processed and that they'll be treated with dignity and respect.
It's a forward step for Malaysia and one that we very much welcome, and it reflects the good faith discussions that we've been having with Malaysia, the UN High Commission for Refugees and the International Organisation for Migration since last December about this sort of arrangement.
ALI MOORE: The 800 asylum seekers that we're sending, where will they come from? Will they be new arrivals or will they be those ...
CHRIS BOWEN: Yes.
ALI MOORE: They'll be new arrivals after this agreement starts?
CHRIS BOWEN: That's correct. Certainly that does not apply to people currently in detention in Australia.
ALI MOORE: And if they're new arrivals who have set foot on Australian territory, does that give them any legal right to challenge you removing them?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well as I said on Saturday, I certainly do expect that there may well be legal challenges, but certainly I believe we're on very strong legal ground. We do not need to change the legislation, that there are several powers under which the minister and the department can take steps to remove people from Australia where they have arrived in an unauthorised fashion and that's what we'll be implementing. It's been done before and we'll be doing it under this arrangement.
ALI MOORE: This has been described as a one-off pilot project by both sides. What happens when you've filled the quote? Does the word pilot suggest that there might be more?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well certainly I think it's very clear that Malaysia and Australia have said we will review this after it's been implemented, we'll review its success and we'll discuss what further steps we might want to take. I think you correctly identify, Ali, those two words. One-off means that this is not an ongoing commitment, but pilot indicates there'll be further discussions after it's been implemented.
I think the important point to make is that this 800 figure is being focused on perfectly appropriately, but the important point to focus on as well is the difference this makes to the business model of the people smugglers. You can no longer sell a guaranteed product of being processed and resettled in Australia.
ALI MOORE: There does seem to be a broad view that the Government's made a hash of your policy on how to deal with asylum seekers. You've gone back on promises, you've changed your mind, you've come up with solutions and then you've changed them.
For example, just today you virtually halved the capacity of the Northam Centre, which is built as we speak. Your supporters in the Parliament, the Greens, say your policy is a dog's breakfast. Do you acknowledge that at best you've been inconsistent?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we've been consistent in this regard: we said before the election we needed an international agreement for an international problem. Again, people pooh-pooed that, said it would never happen, you'd never get the engagement of the countries of the region, you'd never get the engagement of countries like Malaysia in this. The Prime Minister made very clear before the last election she thought a regional framework was the way to go. We've achieved that.
ALI MOORE: But she also said she'd never deal with a country that wasn't a signatory to the United Nations convention?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, and as I say, we've made a big breakthrough with Malaysia agreeing to those very fundamental principles. But of course this is controversial and of course you get setbacks from time to time in any complex policy area, just as countries around the world are dealing with it, whether they be Italy or Greece dealing with boat arrivals as they are at the moment, which frankly make our boat arrivals dwarf in comparison in terms of the arrivals they've had to deal with over recent weeks and months.
But we are making substantial progress. Now this is controversial. There are plenty on the left who would criticised us for being too tough. Plenty of people on the right who will criticise us for not being tough enough. That's immigration policy, that's asylum seekers: it's controversial and it's very difficult to please great bulks of people.
But what you do is you make progress and you show results and that's what we've done in recent days.
ALI MOORE: Minister, many thanks for talking to Lateline.
CHRIS BOWEN: My pleasure, Ali.
Minister, thanks for talking to Lateline.
CHRIS BOWEN, IMMIGRATION MINISTER: Pleasure.
ALI MOORE: This is an in-principle agreement. Is it a done deal?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well certainly the prime minister of Malaysia has committed to enter into this agreement, yes. Of course there are details that are still being worked through. This has been negotiated with Malaysia over a period of six months. I first raised this with my ministerial colleague in Malaysia, Minister Hishammuddin, in last December and we've been working on it since then.
ALI MOORE: Any sticking points that you can see?
CHRIS BOWEN: Oh, look, there's always implementation details and things to be worked through in what is a complex area in terms of transfers between one nation and another, but it's a commitment to enter into an agreement and certainly the degree of good faith and co-operation between Australia and Malaysia in these discussions has been first class.
Malaysia is a key partner of Australia in dealing with people smuggling issues. We deal with a lot of things together, and this takes that relationship to the next step.
ALI MOORE: At a cost of $292 million Australia is "fully funding" the arrangement. Why is Australia paying for both ends of this deal if it's mutually beneficial?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well because this is Malaysia assisting Australia to break the business model of the people smugglers. We can now very clearly send the message to people: don't bother getting on a boat to come to Australia, don't risk your life, don't pay the money, because you'll be returned to Malaysia, which is the first entry point into Asia for most asylum seekers that come to Australia.
So Malaysia is assisting in that. Also it's appropriate that Malaysia, who has 92,000 registered refugees and asylum seekers in its country, that we assist them in that with a greater degree of burden sharing across the region and that Australia can play a greater role. So this is a win for Malaysia. It's also a win for Australia. It's a loss for the people smugglers.
ALI MOORE: So of the $76 million of the $292 million that's been identified as operational cost, is that $76 million going to Malaysia?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well that's the entire operational cost. That's the cost of transfers, it's the cost of moving people to Malaysia, it's the cost of introducing them to the Malaysian system. We've said very clearly Australia is funding this agreement.
Malaysia is a country which deals with many challenges. Ninety two thousand asylum seekers and refugees on their books, probably more than that - they're the ones that are registered. And it's appropriate that Australia funds this agreement because it is a fundamental blow to the business model of the people smugglers.
It means that smugglers can no longer sell the guaranteed product of being processed and resettled in Australia. The relationship between Australian and Malaysia is a good one in this regard and it's appropriate that we fund the arrangement.
ALI MOORE: So what will the money be used for? For processing costs? Will we be actively supporting these 800 asylum seekers we're sending to Malaysia?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, look, the IOM and the UNHCR will be in the process of managing these people through. The total operational costs are the total operational costs, the costs that you identified - that's the cost of the transfer, it's the cost of the processing in Malaysia. The people in Malaysia don't have access to welfare or that level of support, so there are very minimal costs there. But this is ...
ALI MOORE: Will we be providing that support?
CHRIS BOWEN: We'll be funding the arrangement, we'll be funding the process of IOM, we'll be funding the process of the UNHCR in the processing as past arrangement, but there's no ongoing support in terms of access to welfare under the Malaysian system. People who are transferred to Malaysia under this deal will get no preferential treatment and that's an important part of the deal.
ALI MOORE: So how will they support themselves? As you say yourself, there's no right to work, there's no access to health care, there's no access to education.
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, there's 92 million - 92,000, I should say, asylum seekers in Malaysia. They support themselves through a variety of mechanisms. Of course there's informal work that happens, of course there is, but there's no formal work rights.
ALI MOORE: Illegal work?
CHRIS BOWEN: There's no formal work rights. And that is what happens. Now, importantly, Ali, if you're concerned about the plight of asylum seekers in Malaysia, then people would welcome the fact that Australia is taking 4,000 more over the next four years.
We are taking people who've been mandated as refugees, who've been waiting patiently in Malaysia for resettlement. People who are in - have fled difficult situations, particularly in Burma, and fled the regime there and we are taking more of that load and that's appropriate.
ALI MOORE: Is it though a moral dilemma for the Government and indeed for yourself as minister, because of course Australia clothes, houses, feeds, educates and looks after asylum seekers while their applications are being processed. And now a decision has been made to say, "Well, we'll keep doing that, except for these 800 who won't get what the others will get in Australia." Is that a moral dilemma?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, the benefit of this deal, as I say, Ali, is that it breaks the business model of the people smugglers. It's a huge disincentive to come to Australia. And to answer your question about the moral dilemma: it means that we can increase our humanitarian intake and we can help 4,000 more people. I find that something which is very easy to embrace on a moral level. It means that Australia can do more.
And, it's very easy in this debate to focus on one group of people: the people who make it into Australia. Let's focus on some of the others: on the 92,000 in Malaysia and doing more for them, the people who don't get on boats to come to Australia and the people who have been waiting for resettlement. Now if we can do more for that and do more across the region, I think morally that's something we can embrace with open arms.
ALI MOORE: You've always rejected rejecting process centres like Nauru on the basis that they're not signatories to the UN convention. Of course Malaysia is not. Why is Malaysia different?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well Malaysia has had a commitment to Australia that they will comply with the basic principle of the UN convention on refugees, which is they will not return people to persecution where they're in need of international protection. They've also made a commitment to treat people with dignity and respect and humanity and that people will have their claims assessed.
The UNHCR has been consulted in terms of this arrangement and they'll be participating in it. And the UNHCR of course I think sees this as a significant step forward in their relationship with Malaysia.
ALI MOORE: At the same time, the UNHCR has pointed out that if there is going to be a monitoring role for them, there'd need to be some discussion. Are you prepared to formally fund the UNHCR so they can monitor? Because I wonder how a very high-level commitment about treating these people with dignity and respect flows down to the local policeman or the volunteer police force, which in Malaysia is responsible for checking IDs and travel documents.
CHRIS BOWEN: Well we have been in discussions in the UNHCR. I've been in those discussions at the Geneva level, at the Jakarta level, at the Kuala Lumpur level. And these are discussions that we've been having and will continue to have. The UNHCR has rightly pointed out that there are still details being sorted through.
But I think, Ali, if a sovereign government makes a commitment that people will be treated with respect and humanity, that should be respected in turn. So big step for Malaysia to say that they will abide by the agreement not to return people to a country where they may face persecution, that they will have their claims processed and that they'll be treated with dignity and respect.
It's a forward step for Malaysia and one that we very much welcome, and it reflects the good faith discussions that we've been having with Malaysia, the UN High Commission for Refugees and the International Organisation for Migration since last December about this sort of arrangement.
ALI MOORE: The 800 asylum seekers that we're sending, where will they come from? Will they be new arrivals or will they be those ...
CHRIS BOWEN: Yes.
ALI MOORE: They'll be new arrivals after this agreement starts?
CHRIS BOWEN: That's correct. Certainly that does not apply to people currently in detention in Australia.
ALI MOORE: And if they're new arrivals who have set foot on Australian territory, does that give them any legal right to challenge you removing them?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well as I said on Saturday, I certainly do expect that there may well be legal challenges, but certainly I believe we're on very strong legal ground. We do not need to change the legislation, that there are several powers under which the minister and the department can take steps to remove people from Australia where they have arrived in an unauthorised fashion and that's what we'll be implementing. It's been done before and we'll be doing it under this arrangement.
ALI MOORE: This has been described as a one-off pilot project by both sides. What happens when you've filled the quote? Does the word pilot suggest that there might be more?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well certainly I think it's very clear that Malaysia and Australia have said we will review this after it's been implemented, we'll review its success and we'll discuss what further steps we might want to take. I think you correctly identify, Ali, those two words. One-off means that this is not an ongoing commitment, but pilot indicates there'll be further discussions after it's been implemented.
I think the important point to make is that this 800 figure is being focused on perfectly appropriately, but the important point to focus on as well is the difference this makes to the business model of the people smugglers. You can no longer sell a guaranteed product of being processed and resettled in Australia.
ALI MOORE: There does seem to be a broad view that the Government's made a hash of your policy on how to deal with asylum seekers. You've gone back on promises, you've changed your mind, you've come up with solutions and then you've changed them.
For example, just today you virtually halved the capacity of the Northam Centre, which is built as we speak. Your supporters in the Parliament, the Greens, say your policy is a dog's breakfast. Do you acknowledge that at best you've been inconsistent?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we've been consistent in this regard: we said before the election we needed an international agreement for an international problem. Again, people pooh-pooed that, said it would never happen, you'd never get the engagement of the countries of the region, you'd never get the engagement of countries like Malaysia in this. The Prime Minister made very clear before the last election she thought a regional framework was the way to go. We've achieved that.
ALI MOORE: But she also said she'd never deal with a country that wasn't a signatory to the United Nations convention?
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, and as I say, we've made a big breakthrough with Malaysia agreeing to those very fundamental principles. But of course this is controversial and of course you get setbacks from time to time in any complex policy area, just as countries around the world are dealing with it, whether they be Italy or Greece dealing with boat arrivals as they are at the moment, which frankly make our boat arrivals dwarf in comparison in terms of the arrivals they've had to deal with over recent weeks and months.
But we are making substantial progress. Now this is controversial. There are plenty on the left who would criticised us for being too tough. Plenty of people on the right who will criticise us for not being tough enough. That's immigration policy, that's asylum seekers: it's controversial and it's very difficult to please great bulks of people.
But what you do is you make progress and you show results and that's what we've done in recent days.
ALI MOORE: Minister, many thanks for talking to Lateline.
CHRIS BOWEN: My pleasure, Ali.
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